Wednesday, April 21, 2010

Why Rick Was Asked to Leave

Overview of last ten years
Our church grew to the numbers the elders spoke of when we joined about 10 yrs ago. It expanded rapidly and hired staff ‘quickly.’ In those years since many ‘issues’ ensued which are typical when rapid expansion occurs. The first bump in the road, was the worship director Mike Dwyer. Many members left with/after his departure. Then I think the Dave Nelson debacle and Dave Simonson departure…there was loss after that. Then we started experiencing the reduction of income and the budget wasn’t covering. We had to let Ron Speers go…much dissent and loss of membership over that. And then Scott Pittman left for better ground….our great Jr high program was demolished…people departed over the loss of that program. And then Dave Friese and Matt Odegaard. Somewhere in between all this was the Santa Fe Christian disturbance and division.
Sorry, but these cannot be laid at Rick’s ‘lack of ‘intent’ shepherding and pastoral oversight‘ concerns or ‘loving his family too much‘… We expanded rapidly, hired staff to fulfill those needs, not always staff in complete understanding and ‘on board’ with the church’s 'process' and belief perspective about everything……and at this time we had elders who spent a couple of hours at the church on Sundays.
Point to consider: If many people left because of perhaps ‘misplaced’ loyalty to these ‘peripheral’ staff and programs….how many will the church lose when and if the MAIN voice/Teacher/pastor of the church is fired? Aside from whether people ‘should’ biblically leave for whatever their reasons are, the fact is people DO unfortunately get frustrated, not understand, and leave…… The fact is MORE people will leave than probably all previous staff combined…not just a few like with each departing staff member previously. When people left before, they left because they had personal contact with that staff member leaving, whether it be in the worship, parenteens, children’s ministry areas, etc. ALL ‘feel’ personal contact with Rick.
There are always 3 groups in the church….the “we like ‘em” crowd, “we don’t like ‘em” crowd and the ‘we don’t care’ crowd. But in this scenario with the voice/teacher/pastor…MOST people have an opinion because they have ‘experienced’ contact with Rick. While the elders no doubt have heard from the “we don’t like em crowd’ as evidenced by the ‘critique’ Rick ‘loves his family too much’ *(see below) Me thinks they have grossly underestimated the extent of the ‘we like em crowd’ as well as the potential effect the loss of Rick will have on this body of Christ, biblical or not biblical.
The last ten years' growth/loss will be a speck. Are the elders really willing to ‘cut the baby in half?”




  • so...... Why Rick was asked to Leave (L.O.A.)?
    1 What is the ‘philosophy’ difference? Bottom lining, the Elders believe growth comes from small groups and Bible Study scenarios, where people are personally responsible and accountable to others, and there is less emphasis, if any, on ‘teaching the Word.’ Rick believes growth comes from ‘teaching’ where the Holy Spirit works mightily--and this is not just ‘ imparting knowledge’ as well as the smaller group scenarios. Elders want the personal accountability and small group aspect ‘preached’ more. Intentional shepherding does not include ‘the teaching aspect’ for the elders. Rick’s main gifting and concern and emphasis is in strong, biblical teaching of the Word, the elders emphasis is in strong small group and Bible Study connections and accountability and responsibility.

So the question is ‘how do individuals and groups of people/congregations grow spiritually?’

The elders are entrenched and committed that we have to change directions from what Rick has been doing for 31 years to a greater emphasis on being personally accountable to each other in small groups. They want that preached in the message stronger and emphasized more overall. They have perhaps unfairly, labeled Rick’s belief and philosophy at best: “hands off” which isn’t necessarily and completely accurate and at worst: unbiblical.


PS Rick’s “personal issue” alluded to : He ‘loves his family too much.’ (Those are Rick's exact words to describe what the Elders mean.) They feel the examples and illustrations Rick uses with his family are ‘too much.’ {wow Personally, it is great to see a person verbalize that much love for family…..and as another member said, ‘what a great example to aspire to……’ but I can see where this makes many who are not at this point feel ‘uncomfortable.’ It is a high standard.But what teachers doesn't use examples from their personal life, I.E. John Tebay, my word, The Carr's ministry is based on their personal life!}
Rick cites Biblical Scripture which supports his aspect that one ‘shepherd’ may not necessarily be gifted and strong in every aspect of a ‘shepherding’ the elders mentioned but God provides in the Body. If I am not mistaken, I believe that IS one of the principles upon which he founded the church---that no on man can be 'it all' to the church system . After all, Moses had Aaron…and Miriam. Also, Deborah had Barak….or Barak had Deborah. Gee, even the God of the ALL is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Eph 4: 11 “It was He who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12 to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up…” and in the Greek, that ‘pastor and teacher’ idea goes together. Rick is fulfilling his gift as well as the other areas of the Biblical scripture laid out by the Elders in support of ‘what an elder is to be.’ And of course, Rick says, he could do better in the ‘hands on’ aspect…but then can’t that be said of all of us?
2
The ‘message’ of small groups and accountability is valid and no one, including Rick disputes this…but to all of us THIS HAS been very well emphasized and made clear over the last years……but what Rick and the Elders cannot change (only the Spirit can) is the makeup, faults and the machinations of our attenders, our members, the Southern California, and specifically the less-than-perfect Encinitas culture. Regardless of our professed desire for spiritual growth, unfortunately, paying our high rents, mortgages, cost of living, maintaining our style of living, educating and making sure our children have the best schools, childhood experiences and extra-curricular activities silently and inevitably still competes in our Encinitas culture for first place. Until those individuals, families and ‘each’ is moved and convicted BY THE SPIRIT to abide by Mathew 6:33 and place the Father and His Kingdom first I.E. Put their JOBS, CHILDREN, LEISURE TIME, SLEEP, FREEDOM, TIME and whatever into His Providing Hands completely…a far second---small groups will not flourish. Our Encinitas culture and many of our members still cannot make the leap to FULLY entrust and commit this verse in a real way and sense in their lives. We are still keeping THAT part of our lives under our 'own' meticulous, organized, carefully or not so carefully planned control-- continually coming to the wrong conclusion---we do NOT have the time to commit to a small group….it has to be ‘fit in’….and no amount of preaching and emphasis is going to have the scales fall from their eyes…until the Holy Spirit moves in them and they receive, and ACT upon that "wild abandonment" themselves.
 
3
So where are we? . This hasn’t happened overnight. Before John Tebay came, this is the path the Elders wanted and were headed…it never died, was passed on down to the Board today and now has been revived over the last 6 months more fierce than ever. The course of the Elders sure seemed set by the tone of that last meeting, regardless of what they are publicly speaking. Their heels, especially two of them, seemed very well dug-in. And that is meant in the best of way. Diplomatically they can’t claim out loud, “either Rick changes to our way of thinking or else” but their body language and fielding of questions and responses seemed to indicate that. In essence, that seems to be clearlywhat they are saying and doing when they send him away to ’think, pray and reflect’ ---sounds reminiscent of children when they are sent to their rooms to contemplate their actions?--- and do not eliminate the concern of the majority of the attenders when they ask about what will happen when Rick comes back. Not taking calming our concerns is preparing us for the shock to come.

some thoughts to consider

  • Isn’t it the end of the fiscal year soon? In 6 weeks? When does the Leave of Absence end?
  • It certainly is much easier to ‘get things moved along’ without the dissenter amongst the meetings?
  • It seemingly looks like the Elders are 'taking all possible measures." But, how do you ‘work things out’ without the ’opposition’ present? {Would we be advised to send our spouse away in order to work things out in our marriages?} yes, a marriage structure and a church system is different......somewhat.... isn't there something in there about the bride of Christ, etc?
  • and by the way....who cares that someone else has said 'we have given Rick more than enough grace over the years" I am pretty sure...there is NO END TO GRACE. '7 X 70 for forgiveness' or something like that. ....applies
  • The ‘majority rules’ or 'four elders against one' reasoning...even among Elders isn’t completely valid. Oswald says “the value of ’advice’ cannot be judged by the number of people ’for’ or ‘against’ it.” As AL Menconi alluded to, ALOT of our congregation has benefited from Rick’s solid Biblical teaching, are Bereans and we not all ’dumb sheep.’ We understand the problems of this body of Christ, the Scripture and study it like an Elder does too, and DO NOT AGREE with this course of action. So if the elders are going to stand by ’the majority rules thing” better poll the majority not 'pole' the majority--keep at a distant. (and yes, we know we can't have the mob mentality running the show.)
  • Along with that, we ALL can ‘get it wrong.’ Instead of making sure the Scriptures are on ‘our side’ we better make sure ‘we are on Scripture’s and God’s side….and be POSITIVE ---which is impossible to be in this situation---before radically changing what has survived 30 years. In 2 Kings 12, I think, Rehoboam got counsel from the Elders that had counseled his father Solomon, and then from those younger men he had grown up with. He rejected the counsel of the elders of his father and followed the council of those he had grown up with and it turned out disastrous.
  • In comparison, a man who has dedicated his life to serving the Lord, irrespective of financial gain, totally trusting in the Lord to supply all his needs and in the ‘physical’ world, whose chosen profession--a pastor; Rick’s philosophy and if you will, interpretation--- vs. four younger Elders--business men in the ‘physical’ world-- overall proportion of time spent in a secular profession, however, in all fairness---very, very dedicated to God in their personal lives…… Again, not to say anyone ‘can’t get it wrong‘ but who is more likely to have an all-compassing perspective?
  • Whatever happened to ‘UNITY in the essentials, and GRACE in the nonessentials?’ Isn’t the ONLY ESSENTIAL Jesus? Work it out--gentlemen----- together.
  • However, BUT GOD, and the Elders DO believe that God can work…..AND Rick is counting on God to work, as He did when John Tebay was brought into our midst and altered the Elders’ course of action a few years ago.'

  • Now is not the time to be passive congregation...the Elders have heard from the squeaky wheels, now the the well-oiled wheels---- give some imput--IN LOVE AND PRAYER--talk to your Elders.
  • PRAY, PRAY, PRAY, PRAY, PRAY, PRAY, PRAY, PRAY, PRAY, PRAY, PRAY, PRAY

103 comments:

  1. Thank you so much for this ...the whole things is just unbelieveable. If you hear what we should do, will you PLEASE let me know????

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  2. who wrote the blog? It was brilliant and seemed to sum up the last ten years very well . . . Keep me posted on what happens.

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  3. What can we do to ensure that Rick remains the teaching pastor of Seacoast? Please, please, let's come up with a plan. In my heart before the Lord, I know what is happening is wrong... I'm sure it grieves our Prince of Peace. Can we change our constitution so 4 or 5 men don't have so much power, and make it a "member-majority rules" democracy? Please, please, lets work together to ensure Rick remains our pastor.

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  4. Such a risky decision they made. Our kid's ministries are weak right now, kid's programs & junior high are especially struggling. We have lost so much kid passion & interest since summer's baptisms! These are reason enough to look around for a more secure place to embrace our kid's & "family".
    Without Rick, there are no longer strong ties to Seacoast> I agree that small groups do not fit our current lifestyles. For many of us,being there on Sunday is a breath of fresh air, and is best described as a dose of contagious goodness from Rick. I think Rick's approach is well balanced, and certainly not too heavy on scripture. I believe there a "fill in Pastor" who is really heavy on scripture, and not as "user friendly" as Rick is, is he getting smudged too, or is he staying? Rick most always brings the lesson full circle to someone, somewhere, we can all relate to. Rick shows us areas, and reasons to grow, but doesn't shove them down our throats. And of course, an occasional swift kick in the rear with a little "homework" from Rick is always welcome. Too personal? Personal is the pressure of a small group, and the worry of another place to be. Small groups are intimidating and not for the simple quiet followers. We are not the "don't care group", we are the loyal,"we like him group", and "loving & growing in Christ under Rick group". Shall we swallow this new direction, and hope it fits the majority who were not polled?
    Yes we can adapt, but who's to say that our congregation will feel united as we sit there and wonder who the bullies are, while "carry on" & follow the Lord. Oh dear, Let us Pray.

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  5. Wow! Insightful, intelligent, and truthful. These are the things upon which light must be shed so that the congregation can truly know the issues, make a position, and wholeheartedly stand firm on an opinion. I am impressed by both the biblical reference and logical explanation of this posting. Let us unite as a people of God both in our prayers and our voices.

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  6. A blog on this subject is a great idea. Better yet, it would be great if Rick could speak for himself on this blog instead of having the elders do his speaking for him. Rick is a godly man. He is a great preacher. If godliness could be gauged, who would surpass him? If he is so bad at pastoring that we terminate his position here, would we follow him to other churches, to warn them about him?? Should he be a pastor anywhere??

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  7. Sometimes, Christians can be the most difficult people to get along with. Believe me, I am at the top of that list many times. We cannot be blind to what satan is doing here. He will stop at nothing to destroy the work of Christ, work that has already been won. Just look at the way he handled the debacle at Santa Fe Christian.

    A question we need to ask ourselves, "How is God being glorified in this?" At the end of the meeting, Al Menconi said he has traveled to hundreds of churches across the country. A lot of them have far deeper problems than we have at Seacoast.

    Whatever is decided, it will be painful, it will be difficult.

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  8. Thank you so much for writing this. So where do we go from here?

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  9. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  10. Yes, based on everything I have heard about the dispute, this blog appears to fill in the details very well. Thank you to the person who wrote it. I am interested to see if any type of petition can be can be raised targeting the overturning of the elders' decision, that is assumming the 5 of them cannot work out these differences. My heart will break if Rick leaves, and our family may leave too.

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  11. This blog seems to be very accurate.

    Our family has studied every article the board used to come up with their decision/opinion, and we came to the opposite conclusion. The board's main argument is based on a single article that is addressed to a men's group leader. And the concern in that article was men getting involved with immorality and the leader should be proactive in addressing that issue. That's the basis for their decision with Rick.

    All the other articles do not encourage a "hands on approach." In fact, most of the other articles imply a "hands off" (Rick's) approach to shepherding the flock.

    After 30 years of Grace and freedom, it's seems our board wants to "fundamentally change" the philosophy of Seacoast. To be honest, I don't want Seacoast to change. Maybe they can tinker with the administration, but I don't know anyone who wants the basic philosophy taught by Rick to change.

    I don't know what goes on behind the scenes, but I couldn't ask for a stronger teacher/shepherd than Rick. He is fundamental, but not a fighting fundamentalist. I need that type of teacher. I especially appreciate his "lead by example" approach to shepherding because I came from a church that had a strong "hands on" pastor/shepherd. I am certain he would be a perfect fit for our board. But it isn't who we are at Seacoast.

    I know Rick isn't the strongest leader. So what! Everything my family and I have read about intentional shepherding indicates each board member has a responsibility in church leadership. What are the other board members responsibilities? Why can't one of the other board members who has the gift of leadership help Rick with his "behind the scenes" responsibilities?

    Many families at Seacoast are ready to leave if Rick is asked to leave. Not because of any "cult of personality." But in spite of Rick's personality. He's not a charismatic leader. So what! We love him because his teaching brings us closer to the heart and mind of God. Rick's teaching and lifestyle shepherding is the glue that keeps us here.

    Let's pray that our board and Rick will look for a third model of shepherding that won't destroy the church in order to save it.

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  12. Thank you very much for writing this. You laid out the issues very well.

    One thing everyone should also remember is that Rick is willing to do what the elders have asked - he wants to work with them and will do whatever it takes to stay. He cares enough about the church body to do whatever they ask, even though it's going to involve attending counseling for "loving his family too much." And though HE is willing to work with THEM, the elders aren't willing to budge an inch. They will not consider that maybe their perspectives are slightly skewed and perhaps should be tempered a bit, or that perhaps BOTH Rick's philosophy and theirs can work together and maybe create an even stronger church. They aren't willing to consider that one leader cannot do it ALL on his own. And, in fact, shouldn't do it all on his own. That is not how the body of Christ was intended to be.

    It's also important to realize that if the elders had their way, the entire congregation would be told exactly how to live their lives and would be condemned for deviating from the chosen standard. How is that freedom in Christ? And where does this standard come from anyway?

    Lastly, there is something very wrong if four men can act singularly, against a significant portion of the congregation, and basically destroy a 30-year church. Because the church will be, if not completely destroyed, seriously and perhaps irreperably damaged if Rick is fired.

    One commenter asked what should be done. Well, if the majority of the church disagrees with the elders and lets this be known to them, via letters, e-mails and at the scheduled May meeting, perhaps this disastrous course can be stopped. Perhaps this is too strong of a course, but I believe the church body should ask the elders to resign if they cannot come to a compromise (maybe compromise by hiring someone who is singularly in charge of "shepherding" and small groups instead of asking the one guy to do it all?) and re-elect new elders.

    I have been attending Seacoast for a significant amount of time, and have seen numerous elder boards work together for the good of the church. Boards who were not unified eventually BECAME unified, and if an elder could not agree, he stepped down (on some occasions). And, past elder boards have always seriously considered the opinions and needs of the congregations. It seems to me that if the elders truly care about the church, they should be humble enough to admit if their opinions do not match with that of the congregation and either compromise or step down. Are they so naive that they do not realize that the very church they are supposedly trying to "save" will die if they stay on their intended course? If they truly care about the church and its people, they should try their very hardest to come to a decision that will not destroy it.

    People, this is your church, your pastor, your ministry. If a strong course of action is called for -- such as demanding that the elders step down -- then better that then the end or partial dismantling of the church. Ask the elders to stop this action and come to a different decision. And if it can't be done, to step down.

    This church was on its way to healing and it can be again, and result in great things. And Rick is the most humble, loving, servanthearted, genuine man you will ever meet. Don't let the elders send him away.

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  13. Thank you for the blog. I wrote my letter to the Directors and Elders today (before reading your blog). I told them that Rick is the primary reason why I have been going to Seacoast for over 24 years. I think it is important that they know this. Without Rick, Seacoast could be a church of 50 members....

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  14. Very well written. A couple of additional observations:

    The elders want a small group situation where the members submit to the authority of the leader. They want Rick to preach submission from the pulpit. This is very close to the Santa Fe Christian situation where the one side preached total submission to authority while Rick was the voice of reason and grace. Seacoast was the major church of SFC. Some disagreed with Rick and left, some thought he should have been stronger, some tired of seeing their opponents on Sunday and left. I was never more proud to be part of a church. This was a major reason for people leaving, but Rick was on the right side.

    Rick's teaching has released us from bondage. Why would we want to put on the yoke of submission? Not to Christ, but to men? Rick supports small groups as a method of reaching spiritual maturity, but he can't support this "power thing". Neither can I.

    And this thing about loving his family too much is ridiculous. Many times I have tired of the Laurie or Luke or Toby illustrations, but he doesn't idolize them. He just needs to get out a little more.

    Shepherding and preaching should be "intentional", that is, having the purpose of getting the sheep to take righteous action. Rick's teaching, along with the Holy Spirit, inspires me to rightous action, without being manipulative.

    I agree, if they get rid of Rick, the fellowship will implode.

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  15. Sorry I have been away and didn't update the blog. Please continue to send out this blog to others. There are many good comments here and this is one way for the elders to see them without a person to person confrontation.

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  16. Anyone know why the meeting was pushed back? More time for the Elders to bolster their position? PS Anytime the 'church' starts bringing in people from 'higher up in the organization' they are starting to make the transition from old to new...and we think it is no coincidence that this is happening at the end of the fiscal year..

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  17. I suppose this blog may serve a useful purpose in providing a forum for people to express themselves. However, I have no reason to believe that the story told by "graceandunity" is complete with all relevant information or is accurate in its interpretations. (Who is he/she quoting with reference to Rick's "loving his family too much" and other alleged statements?) Even the title of the blog, "WhyRickwasaskedtoLeave", suggests facts at odds with public communications from both Rick and the other four elders. My recommendation is to take at face value what these five men are saying and to allow Rick and Laurie to fully benefit from their time away.

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  18. Tracy Hubly StarkjohannMay 2, 2010 at 9:12 AM

    Hi, Steve, this is Tracy and actually when Chris and I met with Rick...those are the exact words Rick used to inform us of what the Elders meant when they 'alluded' to his 3rd (personal) issue, so we can vouch that was the they way Rick described it to us

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  19. Tracy Hubly-StarkjohannMay 2, 2010 at 9:23 AM

    Actually, I guess I just commented about the "loving his family too much" statement...because that IS how Rick described it to us. And, yes I do think a blog is a great way for people to express themselves as the Elders seem to be keeping a tight rein on that..and then making sure that only one on one meetings are the manner in which they will address anyone.

    Also, I aksed the Elders Rick's position at the meeting and they either chose to just not address that question because it was off their topic or because they do not fully understand what he is saying. In anydispute it is wise to fully understand the "opposition" point of view, so in not being able to hear it from the 4 Elders Chris and I went to Rick and asked him to explain his point of view aznd what HE thought the Elders' position was.

    So I think it is wise to take BOTH sides and ALL Elder's comments at face value. This blog seems to, as many others have commented, 'laid out this issues very well'...and covered both sides to the issue from ALL Elders and like we said, those were the words Rick used with Chris and I when went went to meet with to describe the 3rd personal 'issue' to which the other Elders told us to go ask Rick about.

    OK gotta go to church this AM but more to say later. Great idea.

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  20. I appreciate the folk who are not speaking anonymously.

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  21. To those of you who are unsure of the validity of the facts of the blog, just go talk to Rick. He will quite humbly lay out the issues for you, but without maligning anyone or their opinions (including the elders - misguided as they may be). And, what he says will most likely be very close to what was written here.

    Additionally, I've heard many individuals asking why Rick was not at the meeting after the original announcement. In fact, this question was asked at the meeting, and one of the elders said that Rick felt it would be better if he were not there, which is completely untrue. Rick was NOT INVITED to the meeting. It was planned by the elders and was their forum - they didn't want him to be there. In fact, they will not let him say anything without reviewing what he plans to say first. If that is not suppression of truth, I'm not sure what is. These things are what have made me extremely uncomfortable about this situation and how it's being handled. It's almost as though the elders are trying to hide something.

    They need to invite Rick to speak at the (now rescheduled) meeting, and allow him to say exactly what he thinks. I know Rick is worried about causing more division himself, because the elders have put him in such a "you vs. us" situation. The elders have not handled this correctly at all, and that tells me something about their leadership.

    I pray that the truth prevails in this situation, but I'm not very hopeful as this is not a just world we live in.

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  22. Actually Steve, this blog is completely accurate. I am someone who is very close to the issue, and what is related in this blog is all correct.

    Something else I feel everyone should know: at the meeting a few weeks ago, someone asked why Rick wasn't there to speak himself, and the elders said he was invited but he felt that there was no need for him to be there. This was actually an outright LIE. Rick was actually not invited to the meeting, and to my knowledge the elders did not want him there.

    I have to ask myself, if the elders are resulting to deception to make themselves look better, should they really be "leading" the church?

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  23. Tracy Hubly StarkjohannMay 5, 2010 at 1:22 PM

    Leah, (and Steve) personally I think people speaking anonymously gives an indication of how attenders 'perceive' disagreeing with the Elders' opinion will be received. If they felt they could speak 'freely' I bet they would have no problem revealing their identity. But the atomsphere has been set up as to make it not conducive or acceptable to having a differing opinion. For example, I know when I say anything, people will 'judge' it with the either the personal relationship knowledge they have of me as someone who spends two hours a morning in the Word--studying, who has learned every day to rely wholly on His Word--not someone else telling me what it says-- someone who has completely surrendered to the Lord and is trying to live that out w/His spirit OR the preconceived notion they have personally believe about me...whether it be rebellious, nonconformist, liveral, 'can't-submit-to- authority or whatever their limited experience has been with me...

    When you don't have the 'obstacle' of your opinion of the person (especially if it is negative) to 'factor' into what is being said.....you can better concentrate on the substance of what is being said.

    Also, I too, can confirm the Myatts were really wanted, welcomed to the last meeting. They were questioned/told by the elders "we weren't expecting you to be at this meeting. That's ok isn't it?" Rick consented...but to say that "he RICK, chose not to be there"....is not completely how it went down.

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  24. We started attending Seacoast because of Rick's teaching. I have personally looked forward to Sunday and his sermons because many times they have "hit home" and I have learned quite a bit from his bible teachings. I must say that I am saddened, disappointed and yes, a bit confused.

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  25. tracy Hubly-StarkjohannMay 5, 2010 at 1:52 PM

    whoops ...typo...they were not really wanted/welcomed to the meeting....right before I came into the meeting, I had asked Laurie if they were going to be there...and her comment was "I don't think we were invited" so that pretty clearly indicates what they thought about their presence at the meeting. I am sorry, but that kind of roundabouting the complete truth by the Elders makes me cautious, less inclined to take all they say 'at face value' without questioning it.

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  26. This Sunday is a prayer meeting at 8:15 to 8:45 AM before first service. We meet once a month for corporate prayer in the conference room (next to the kiosk). We usually have 4 to 8 people involved, but I invite all who read this to attend. It won't be a question and answer session, but devoted to prayer. Even if you don't like to pray out loud in a group, that's okay, please come anyway for support.

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  27. (SIDE NOTE: the title "whyrickwasaskedtoleave" is referring only to his Leave of Absence...he WAS asked to leave....otherwise the title would be "whyrickisgone" )

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  28. I think it is an awesome idea to create a blog on this matter! Thank you!

    I LOVE Rick and believe he is the best pastor I have EVER met and I have met many - I am married to an ordained pastor who pastored our church in NJ for 7 years (14 years ago), and we attended annual Pastors' conferences, so I knew a lot. I am totally committed to doing everything possible to keep Rick here. But I am first committed to the Lord and that includes being committed to the Truth (which BTW comes from God - He possesses all Truth - He is the SOURCE of Truth). So beginning with the title, I must state the truth: it is incorrect to say "Rick was asked to leave" because he has NOT been asked to leave. He has been asked to TAKE a leave, a leave of ABSENCE. My goal in this and in every matter of life, every day of my life, is to glorify the One Who is Worthy. I am a simple Christian on the walk.

    That being said, I think your blog is awesome. I have some ideas, too.


    First, we need to be Christians who are in TUNE with CHRIST. Can we each commit to PRAYING about this one-tenth as much as we TALK, THINK or WORRY about it??? Can you imagine the power we'd have if we all committed to that?? And who would LOVE to see this Body torn apart, this work of the Lord?? It's going to take the "full armor of God" to defeat the demonic realm and win this spiritual battle. Read it again, Eph. 6. This is going to take a very deep relationship with the Lord to survive this crisis. We need to be in TUNE with Him to be directed and guided by Him, in HIS TRUTH. We need to continually recharge our spiritual batteries in the reading of the Word (not just for a lesson or not just a few verses or a chapter at a time but deeply, listening to Him speak to us as we read); we need to "be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is" (Rm. 12:2). If we are in disagreement, some of us are barking up the wrong tree, being not in TUNE with HIS TRUTH. We can't all be in tune and guided by Him if we are not in agreement.
    Then, we must all humble ourselves. The root problem of humanity, the first and foremost sin, as Rick has taught us, is pride. Pride will make someone think they have enlightenment, the answers, and will even cause us to criticize others (which is often hypocrisy too as we almost always have done what we are criticizing others of). Also if we are truly in tune with the Lord, ironically, that tempts us to become proud. So humbling ourselves must be not just a daily practice, but an hourly one. "I Need Thee Every Hour."
    We must all commit to serving Christ FIRST and FOREMOST in this. "Not my will, but THINE be done." We must trust that however the Lord wants this to go, we will accept it! Not "I am of Paul...I am of Apollos..." or "I am of Rick." Rick himself will tell you that in a flash. "I am of Christ."

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  29. I will say this: I believe a lot of our trouble has been due to the church's significant expansion and development of elaborate programs in the past, then significant reduction in size (but not a corresponding reduction in programs), necessitating the reduction in staff, necessitating that the remaining staff members would need to pick up the slack the departing staff left, and this has placed a tremendous burden on Rick and Bob. This church now, even though shrunk, is not the same as it was when there were two pastors in the past. It is still way more complex with the different programs and activities in place. It does make their jobs impossible to do in the same 24 hours in a day.

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  30. I have expressed to Rick & Laurie that I feel the Body needs to hear from Rick to answer to the things the elders said in the post-service meeting last Sunday. We need to hear from Rick himself on the things the elders said for Rick. He needs to speak for himself. Perhaps this blog is the best venue for that?? Maybe we should ask Rick!

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  31. Rick is the reason I choose to go to Seacoast rather than the 100's of other Church's in the area I could attend. I have been at Seacoast over six years now and see and hear Christ working thru Rick each time he gives a sermon. I think he does an excellent job and uses his God given gifts perfectly. I am so gratelful to have found a Church with such a sweet, kind, loyal and faithful Pastor and pray and ask the elders that they not take him away.

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  32. heard a great idea from many members---what do you think? It is this: On the May 2 meeting, what if we members refused to vote to pass the budget unless the elders agreed to back down and allow Rick to come back as our pastor after his leave of absence? I see it as the only way we members have any power to attempt to keep Rick. I'm afraid the writing is on the wall if we don't. What a tragedy it would be for that wonderful family. What do you think? We could spread the word via e-mail and word-of-mouth...
    If we members don't vote to pass the budget, the elders will then get a very clear idea of where they stand regarding their plans to probably get rid of Rick. It seems to be a fair way to express ourselves as a Body--for we are members of the Body of Christ. Isn't it a great idea? What do you think????

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  33. 1In those days when the number of disciples was increasing, the Grecian Jews among them complained against the Hebraic Jews because ............. 2So the Twelve gathered all the disciples together and said, "It would not be right for us to neglect the ministry of the word of God in order to wait on tables. 3Brothers, choose seven men from among you who are known to be full of the Spirit and wisdom. We will turn this responsibility over to them 4and will give our attention to prayer and the ministry of the word."

    Let the Elders do the job they have been called to do NOT TELLING RICK to do it because he's the 'paid guy' or whatever. It is THEIR responsibility to impact our church in the manner by which they speak, if THAT is what THEY SEE NEEDS TO BE DONE ---more authority, more submission, more accountability, more personal responsiblity (actually it all sounds a bit too legalistic for my liking of course grace, grace grace always makes Teachers of the Law feel uncomfortable) and allow Rick to "not neglect the ministry of the Word of God......" the very evident roll to which he has been called.

    Let the Elders start with THEIR accountability, responsibility, shepherding, caretaking FIRST!!

    Take the logs outta your own eyes guys, and take ALL THE SCRIPTURE into consideration not just what is supporting your beliefs.

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  34. I only saw this blog a couple of days ago. Frankly blogs make me nervous. I suppose that's because I've heard too many horror stories of blogs enflaming difficult situations in other churches and Christian organizations. I tried to post a comment when I first saw the blog but apparently messed up because it didn't get posted. Anyway, I first want to say thank you to all who have sent Laurie and me encouraging words and support whether on this blog or by e-mail, notes or phone calls. As you can imagine this has been a difficult time for us. Even the possibility of no longer getting to minister to and with the wonderful, amazing people of Seacoast has been heart wrenching for us. But we are not jumping off a cliff just yet. Nothing has been decided. We still have hope. And most important, last time I checked God was still on the throne, so we are trusting him and waiting to see what he is doing. We are learning to wait on him in new ways. In the meantime I want to echo what one person wrote earlier. Our enemy would love to use this time to blacken the name of Christ and make a laughingstock of the church before the rulers in the spiritual realm. We must not let that happen. The elders at Seacoast are good men who are trying to follow Christ. While there are disagreements, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. I want to encourage everyone as we deal with our disagreements to continue to treat each other with love and grace. And know that I love you all.

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  35. gotta love how Rick continue's to say 'God's still in control and 'so be it' ....and the Elders are 'postive this is what has to be done and that Rick's philosophy is nor correct' hmmmm?

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  36. But, Grace, please don't quickly forget our Pastor's deep desire for us as his children in the faith: "treat each other with love and grace," and as your "last name" - Unity - embodies: WE ARE ON THE SAME SIDE. Satan is heading up the "other side." Let's be POSITIVE that we can act in harmony with the last ounce of our strength (to be workmen who needeth not to be ashamed, which, by the way, is about self if not working WITH GOD... who loves every Seacoaster).

    If we love Rick, won't we love one another? (Sound familiar?)

    We cannot know enough about this situation to assess it. I know, we've tried. The Lord knows how we've tried. At the end of the day, what do you think the Lord will ask of ME? I'm thinking that more than anything, He will be more concerned with my heart, with the love, unity, positive attitude, servant attitude, mediator's heart, and the mind of an ambassador of Christ. I for one am praying for the parties to sit down together and pray more.

    I thank the elders for their desire to serve the Lord with their whole hearts. I thank the Lord that Rick desires to serve the Lord with his whole heart. I pray the Lord will bring them into unison. The rest is up to the Lord and to the free will of the parties. And God being sovereign would like me to leave it at that.
    Ds

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  37. I think it would be awesome if everyone showed up at the meeting this Sunday and gave their wholehearted support for Rick, and continued to communicate to the elders that we want him around. And, communicate to them that they need to figure out a way to keep Rick around AND keep harmony and peace in the church, whatever it takes - if they can stick around and bring peace, or if they must step down to bring peace.

    Please, everyone pray that Christ's glory is shown in the meeting this Sunday, and that the elder's hearts are not blinded by their own ideas. It's so easy to begin thinking that our ideas are God's. If they are not willing to be wrong, then they won't be able to see if God is guiding them elsewhere.

    Perhaps the meeting on Sunday will further open their eyes. We can always hope and pray.

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  38. Hey Bloggers,
    We are meeting at the gazebo at 8am, this Sunday and walking the campus and praying. Please join us.

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  39. Carol GiallombardoMay 15, 2010 at 9:46 AM

    Dear Tracy & All,

    To me, a comment that is attached to a name carries more weight. It seems that a person would choose their words a bit more carefully. If people judge based on personality, then so be it. That is their burdon to carry.

    Let us pray that God reveals the whole truth behind these recent decisions and that He is glorified by our actions and words.

    I too am confused by the timing and reasoning of the elder board's actions and I pray that Rick will continue as our teaching pastor. He has been a tremendous blessing to me these past 9 years. He has a tremendous gift of speaking to a variety of hearts; reaching old & young, male & female, alike. His shoes will be hard to fill.

    That being said, God is good and He is working. We've got to stay out of His way!!!

    I hope our next meeting will be held in the sanctuary, as I think there will be a larger gathering of concerned Seacoasters, both members and non-members.

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  40. Carol GiallombardoMay 15, 2010 at 12:28 PM

    Leah,

    What a fantastic idea! Count me in and hallelujah, Sister!!!!

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  41. Sorry couldn't meet at 8 but praying everyday for SeaCoast. Learning alot at 'Living Hope' in Oceanside,( maybe even about WHAT is going on at SeaCoast.)

    Very, very disappointed in the meeting, about 15 minutes for Q & A???...but then, that meeting wasn't really about us getting to ask what we would like to know, but rather about us being told again and again, and again what the 4 Elders think. *How interesting they don't want to 'debate' in front of us, just tell us tell us one side of the story.

    And how incredible to insinuate that the only explanation for the Elders not having clarity on Rick's position, and the discrepancy between the rest of us understanding, (who have gone to Rick and questioned him about this 'philosophy difference" and understood)..... is that Rick was purposely being 'ambigious with the Elders" but clear and specific' to the rest of us!!!!! Wow!! Could it just be that he is "ambiguious" and "has no clarity" .... because they disagree with what he says?

    In talking with another older couple, I would like to echo their comment, it's all "sounding VERY VERY VERY legalistic." Thank the Lord, that Jesus --one rabbi who 'read' the Scriptures one way, didn't have to submit to all the others who read the Scripture 'the other way.'

    P.S. Chris and I think these 'position pages' will be the means by which Rick will be fired if he puts down his 'philosophy difference' in black and white; or if it is close enough to the Elders' opinion, it will be used as a future measuring stick (with which to club him...sorry couldn't resist) ...or in the popular language of the day 'by which to hold him accountable."

    It will be used as the historical'documentation' to fire him

    And lastly, not everyone can only grow by having another human being come along side and spoon feed them......Jesus OFTEN taught others by saying such things as "GO and sin no more!" And didn't follow them around and hand hold, and keep on checking up and in with them, and call them up..just to be sure. Some of us can receive the "Go and sin no more....." from the Spirit and have wonders never cease.

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  42. The prayer was Frank Sung's idea. Bob Newby shared with those on his email list and I extended the invitation to y'all.
    Those that couldn't attend today can always come the 1st Sunday of every month at 8:15am in the conference room. Brian and Rebecca Wright have been faithfully organizing this.
    Prayer melts away animosity and brings an attitude adjustment. (Philippians 2:1-18). Paul's last words to the Corinthians were, "Finally, brothers, good-by. Aim for perfection, listen to my appeal, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.
    Greet one another with a holy kiss. all the saints send their greetings.
    May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." (2 Cor.13:11-14)

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  43. Does the Spirit have anyone else up at 3am?

    There's a catch 22 going on ..the Elders have congregational meetings to further the understanding of their position, meet, 'retain- anyone catch the use of that word?) and bring "the EFCA" hierarchy in for help, move along with their agenda-while keeping Rick out of the picture (anyone remember "Animal Farm"?), hire (excuse me, make a commitment now--which keeps Rick out of the teaching til the end of June now--) {will pass a budget}.......

    While Rick continues to follow the example of Jesus.....going to the cross and 'be still and know God is God' .....the Elders keep moving along.

    Any 'action' Rick or others would take, would be perceived and labeled as 'divisive' and be further 'cause' to have Rick fired.

    The Spirit is groaning inside me? Is the story of Esther coming to anyone's mind?

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  44. PS ONE of the very 'issues' the Elders are seeking to address overall...'accountability, 'God's hierarchy,' authority and submission to it....is the very 'non-compliance to the Law' which is being 'exhibited' by those of us who disagree with the 4 Elders opinion...

    We are 'acting out' exactly what the Elders believe is one of the 'core issues' of the problems at SeaCoast. We are not 'submitting' to their authority...quite the conundrum, eh?

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  45. FYI---background on the 'intentional shepherding ' movement

    http://bible.org/article/intentional-shepherding-radical-mentoring

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  46. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  47. I was initially angered by the actions of the Elders in regards to Rick's pastoring, now I am just saddened. I believe that God works in was that we may not understand, but I have gotten nothing but blessings and a closer walk with God because of Rick's gift of teaching. My wife and I will most likely leave if Rick is no longer the teaching pastor, not out of protest, but because that is why we came to Seacoast in the first place.

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  48. Yesterday, I heard someone say publically that they were in total disagreement with what the elders have done. What exactly is it that the elders have done? Point out an area for personal growth in Rick’s life? Yea, I get it – Rick’s really godly, but he’s not perfect, is he? Have the elders wronged him in some way? How? If so, let’s have the evidence on the witness of 2 or 3 people like it says in I Timothy 5:19, and call them to account.

    And another thing, why is everyone so amped-up about letting a guy take some time to sort out his theology on one of the core leadership issues in the church? I’m confused

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  49. Yes, you do seem confused.

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  50. Wake up Seacoast people the elders are giving Rick and Laurie a leave of absences because when it is out sight , it is out of mind. If we don't see them for two months or until the end of June ,than they can transition the new guy in and all of us will stay. WRONG!!!!! The elders are being deceitful and not telling the whole truth of this situation between Rick. The budget is some way of the members control and we should not pass anything until rick gives his next sermon, not his last.
    Prayer is powerful, but the elders are controlling all the power. Frank even said that Sunday.

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  51. I took an hour to write a blog that was lost by the posting system...and I think the last blogger hit it in the head...THAT person is confused.

    Does ANYONE believe Rick needs to 'sort out his theology?' He is very clear as to what his thelogy is..and so are we.... And the Elders have hurt him (and the church body) in sooo many ways, too numerous to count..including but not limited to the way they have handled this and refused to let the church body speak/meet with Rick in a public forum...they have attempted to isolated him, kept him off church property in the guise of a leave of absence, and dishonorably charaterized him; implying he is vague, ambiguious and lacking clarity in his communication with him---this man who has been so powerful, touching us to our souls with his wonderfully annointed, Spirit-filled teaching; who is so clear and concise when speaking to us about God's Word.) The Elders would have us believe this is the same man who cannot convey his philosophy with clarity to the Elders? Or believe Rick's maybe purposely deceived them, as Bill Buchanan subtly suggested.

    The whole manner by which the Elders are doing all of this is hurtful and painful to Rick, his family and the rest of us who love Rick who have grately been shepherded by him in the past.

    The Elders are INTENT on making him agree with them that the ONLY way that people are changed, and grown and spiritually matured is through, submission to (their) authority, obedience to God's hierarchy as determined by them and small groups; one on one accountability and responsiblity Also I think as well, Rick is NOT their idea of a strong 'father figure'...like John Tebay is.

    Rick taught our family a long time ago, submission is two or more EQUALS who willing place themselves under the other to serve each other...not brow beaten, Big Brothered into submission because it is mandated.

    It would be less painful if they just came out and told him "You are not the fit for us" but they are giving lip service and going through a a charade, appearing to take a myriad of steps towards resolution (but it can only be resolution along their postion.) They will not continue on with Rick until he agrees (in writing, in black and white) that there is ONLY ONE WAY to spiritually grow and will NOT allow room for Rick's philosophy: God's SPirit utilizies many ways, including but not limited to intentional shepherding.

    Make no mistake...Rick will be fired. Any smart business person can see the machinations and preparations occurring for this transition. Maybe the writing on the wall that some of us see as the inevitable story ender "hasn't been dictated' yet but the Elders are paving the way towards their end. It is just a matter of when and how soon they can get everything else in place. The longer church attenders go with Rick on the payroll but not in the pulpit the more Elders think we will all 'forget' about how powerful Rick's teaching was for us. They are trying to minimize the casulaities of those who will VOTE WITH THEIR FEET when Rick is fired.

    We came to this church seeing 'UNITY in the essentials and GRACE in the non essentials" posteed on the bulletins and somehow radical intentional shepherding got to be THE essential.....instead of what we always thought it was.....JESUS!

    The Elders are placing THE LAW (through bylaws and Constitution) as more important than love, unity and relationship with Rick and each of us. (They are Legalists in fear of licentiousness)

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  52. Yes, you are confused, and yes, many have gone as witnessess before the Elders in letters and conversations, but have fallen on deaf ears. They will not be swayed any amount of witnesses...they have an agenda. The Elders are not in step with ALL Scripture, they have focused myopically on their version of Eldership and not taken the whole account of all Scripture and especially in how to treat brothers and the Body in LOVE, honesty, vulnerability, openness and integrity. How is NOT letting Rick attend either of these meetings an action done in LOVE and TRUST IN GOD's sovereignty?

    These are very, very arrogant men in contrast to Rick's humbleness, humility and servantude. They all pride themselves in their 'discernment.' That is why they have de-valued the teaching of the Word...Rick's particulary gifting.

    Laurie may be Rick's 'idol' (not) but their idol is appearing to be more and more themselves and their position.

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  53. Tracy Hubly-StarkjohannMay 18, 2010 at 6:58 AM

    Everyone who has a Utmost and Highest by Oswald Chambers, I encourage you to READ May 18, as Oswald is speaking of this very 'sprirtual growth' question that seems to be dividing our church and Elders.

    He says things like 'JESUS says there is only one way to develope spiritually and that is by concentrating on God" and 'pay attention to the Source and out of you will flow...." and "growth in spiritual life doesn't depend on our watching it, but on concentration on our Father in Heaven" and "the people who influence us the most are not the ones who buttonhole us and talk to us but those who live their lives like the stars of heaven and the lilies in the field, perfectly, simply and unaffectedly. Those are the lives that mold us."

    I wrote last year apparently " Soul (sole) focus on God."

    I can't seem to find the reference or mention of "intentional hands-on shepherding here" maybe Chambers needed to go on a theology-sorting-out trip to Idaho.

    S0 Rick, you are in good company with your philosophy here.......of course Oswald who has encouraged and is recognized and read and quoted by millions could be WRONG TOO!

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  54. good post Tracy, here's a link to it:

    http://www.myutmost.org/05/0518.html

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  55. "Until others learn to draw on the life of the Lord Jesus directly, they will have to draw on His life through you. You must literally be their source of supply, until they learn to take their nourishment from God."
    (Oswald Chambers - My Utmost for His Highest - Feb 9)

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  56. Tracy Hubly-StarkjohannMay 18, 2010 at 2:32 PM

    yes, and I drew on and was fed by Rick's strong, correct teaching of the Word until I learned to take my nourishment from God.

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  57. So do you view Rick as the person who discipled you or was a spiritual mentor to you at Seacoast?

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  58. Sadly, I think graceandunity is correct - Rick will be fired. That is, unless the elders step down or leave. They have drawn the line in the sand and anyone with an opinion that is different from theirs is wrong (in their eyes). This is why churches split. Someone in a church says "this small issue is THE issue" (even though it's not something that is vital to salvation) "and if you do not agree with me on this issue, you are WRONG and therefore cannot be a spiritual leader." They are basically saying, it's our philosophy or Ricks and the two cannot coexist. This is sad because it is untrue - they could coexist if the elders were willing.

    The elders have taken the power graciously given them to the church and used it to try and change the church to become what they want it to be. And they're probably going to succeed because, though they are small, they are unified. Just as in politics, absolute power corrupts absolutely. You would think this would not be true in a church, but sadly it still is most of the time.

    I wish that this could be resolved peaceably with both the elders and Rick remaining at the church. But I don't think it's going to happen - I think it's going to be one way or the other. So if we want Rick to stay, which I think at least a significant portion of the church wants, we are going to have to ask the elders to relinquish their power. They still are only four men. And, they are supposed to be serving the church, not forcibly pushing it in a direction it does not want to go. Any ideas for how to ask them to step down? A petition? There has to be a way...four men should not be allowed to dismantle a church of 500-700. If Rick is fired, the church will likely end up as a church of 200-400.

    One last comment. I attended Flood this week instead of Seacoast and though it was on an interesting topic (sex), they said something very profound that I think applies here. They said most churches follow the "three Bs": Believe, behave, belong. If you believe like we believe and behave like we behave, then you can belong. BUT churches should be switching those three Bs around - you can come and belong, and though nothing WE say can change you, hopefully through hearing truth, the Holy Spirit will convict you, which will inspire you to change your behavior and come to a belief in Christ that brings continued growth in him. THAT is how Seacoast should be - not following a legalstic philosophy that requires one to listen to a human's imperfect direction in order to belong to the church.

    Let's take action before the entire foundation of Seacoast is forcibly removed and re-built.

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  59. Tracy Hubly-StarkjohannMay 18, 2010 at 6:38 PM

    I believe through Rick's annointed and gifted teaching of the Word, the Holy SPirit worked mightily in me. Too many times Rick said something in a message, covered a topic, dealt with an issue or passage that the Spirit had just led me to the previous week in my studies. At first I kind of just thought it coincidental, but after so many times, I just accepted it the confirmation..and understood The Body and the Spirit's unity.

    As well as, each and every time and; there were quite a few, when I reached out to Rick, or called him, or asked for a meeting, he took the time to go through a 'thing' with me, explain, guide and direct me...as well as a few times point out to me --where my thinking might be off or incorrect..in all humbleness, and kindness but with authority and amazing discernment. He cut to the chase each time.

    Some of those times, I went away feeling pretty misunderstood or that he/we 'didn't necessarily address my issue'...but as I openmindedly search through what he said and the Scripture, sooner or later "on some point that {I} thought differently, that too, God made clear to {me}" Phillipians 3:15 via Rick's leading.

    And it was because of Rick's obvious love of God, His Word AND HIS FAMILY which was poured out into his messages and those exchanges, as well as his non-arrogant, no ulterior motive, kind, wise direction and guidance...that I was open to the Spirit moving, teaching, growing and changing me. If that is not shepherding, I don't know what is. All I know is in 35 years of church attending....no pastor/teacher looked, spoke or acted like Rick.

    Some people are self-motivators, and some need others to come along side and keep them steady or on course..it just doesn't have to be a cookie cutter mold the Elders are insisting upon...the Holy Spirit can work via so many different means....and I know the way He worked in me and still does, and it is direcly because of Rick's involvement.

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  60. Thank you for a sincere answer to a sincere question. I too, think Rick is a Shepherd to you and to many at Seacoast. May I ask another question at the risk of being misunderstood in this public forum? If Rick were to disagree with the suggestions and facts of this website - would it mean anything to you as someone whom Rick has discipled?
    - Respectfully and Sincerely Intrested

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  61. Tracy Hubly-StarkjohannMay 18, 2010 at 7:17 PM

    Rick's opinion is important, as mentioned above, What he says I do not always accept blindly but if there is a difference I search it out.

    And I HAVE talked to him about this website...and pretty much understand what he thinks about it.

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  62. If possible, could the congregation call for a vote of no confidence on the elders? Is that even allowable? I don't even know how the elders get their job, so I don't know how to un-get it for them. but it seems to me from it's really 2 elders who just want to get rid of Rick-perhaps for personal reasons, not completely sure.
    Other thoughts are that there seems to be some line lifted out of the churches constitution that rationalizes what they are doing. My question is-if we could find that line [whatever it is, i don't even know] and held it up to Scripture, is it a biblical precept? I don't think it is. i think the way
    Rick has 'run/grown' the church all these years is biblical, but it is not western/american. so, does there need to be a change to the constitution? Can that be proposed? Or can that only be done by the elders? This reminds
    me of something a friend of mine said about american courts. He is a lawyer
    and he said-remember, they are courts of LAW, not courts of JUSTICE, so if the law is bad, there will be no justice served. The law needs to be changed to make it just. Maybe the constitution of the church needs the same.
    I am really praying about this. This sickens me.

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  63. Just read the link on Radical Mentorship:
    --It conjures up a crises in order to grab power. Then asks for sacrifice and submission to church leadership in order to ward off the attack.
    --People have always sinned, and always have searched for meaning in the wrong places.
    --The author suffers from selective memory and by doing so has romanticized masculinity of the past. Lust, self doubt, and frustration have been around forever. Man's struggles are clearly documented in the bible.
    --The idealized man mentioned in the article seems to be the average American man of 50 years ago. (Army, college, job) Is that the only way to be a man?
    --It is suggested that this idealized man is better than today's men because he got got a job earlier (as if that was the measure of a man) and then in the same breath criticizes today's men for turning to achievement for self validation.

    The problems we face aren't new. And neither is solution. It's Jesus. We don't need to invent a new bureaucracy to save us.

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  64. I feel strongly that we should pray that the church is PURIFIED according to God's will. I am tempted, in my evil, unregenerated self, to pray that certain people die in the next few weeks, but that is probably not from God and only my opinion. But I do believe God always wants us to be more and more pure-as individuals and as corporately. And He will do it if we ask. So that's what I am praying, and that you will move forward until HE stops you dead in your tracks. [but not literally dead!!!:)]

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  65. Just read the link on Radical Mentorship:
    --It conjures up a crises in order to grab power. Then asks for sacrifice and submission to church leadership in order to ward off the attack.
    --People have always sinned, and always have searched for meaning in the wrong places.
    --The author suffers from selective memory and by doing so has romanticized masculinity of the past. Lust, self doubt, and frustration have been around forever. Man's struggles are clearly documented in the bible.
    --The idealized man mentioned in the article seems to be the average American man of 50 years ago. (Army, college, job) Is that the only way to be a man?
    --It is suggested that this idealized man is better than today's men because he got got a job earlier (as if that was the measure of a man) and then in the same breath criticizes today's men for turning to achievement for self validation.

    The problems we face aren't new. And neither is solution. It's Jesus. We don't need to invent a new bureaucracy to save us.

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  66. I know blogs are meant to share one's thoughts and feelings, hear what others have to say, receive input and advice, ect, but in reading these posts it sounds more like a mutiny and lots of "Christian" gossip!!

    One of my devotional readings this week seems timely and hopefully food for thought:

    "Thank me (Jesus) in the midst of the crucible. When things seem all wrong, look for growth opportunities. Especially, look for areas where you need to let go, leaving your cares in My able hands. Do you trust Me to orchestrate your life events as I choose, or are you still trying to make things go according to your will? If you keep trying to carry out your intentions while I am leading you in another direction, you deify your desires.
    Be on the lookout for what I am doing in your life. Worship Me by living close to Me, thanking Me in all circumstances."

    From 'Jesus Calling'

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  67. gossip is malicious or engaging in idle talking..when the intention is to try to resolve the issue, it is not gossip.

    Plus this blog so far is the only means for the atenders to discuss, as the Elders have more or determined ther eshould be no 'meeting together' for the attenders TO discuss and fully understand what is going on. It is veryyy apparent that there are TWO DIFFERENT perceptions of the same issue, and the Elders have kept a tight rein on the expression of the view which differs from their own. When the information is shared together all at once, instead of being repeated from person to person in individual conversations, there is not several different 'versions' going around.

    PS "letting God" has been mentioned SEVERAL times in this blog...but the questions ARE 'why aren't the Elders just 'letting God' act in Rick's life? Obviously, they feel they are they are God's Hand and Feet in this.....

    As the same, I keep questioning...when do we ALL sit back and know GOd is God" or when is the point when you DO what God seems to be leading you to do?

    God and the Holy SPirit ORCHESTRATE THRU PEOPLE, while events and circumstances CAN be maginally manuevered and I DO believe God can do a miracle ANY time He chooses, The Spirit and God usually work THRU those who are listening and obedient.

    I guarantee you, I am being obedient with this Blog. I have never done one before, and during the middle of the night, after much praying and asking what can be done, I awoke to the thought of a Blog, and it was confirmed that is what I should do.

    I HAVE surrendered my will to His, and will DO whatever He calls me to in this situation.

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  68. Having called Seacoast my church home for over 20 years, I think I have a pretty good understanding of its history, and I also love and have relationship with Rick and Laurie. In the above mentioned post by graceandunity I would ask a few questions, since I did write the post directly above it...:)

    Isn't it clear what God calls all the members to do in this situation? We are told to obey our elders and submit to their authority. This is not a "blind" obedience and do whatever someone who has a position of power says. It doesn't mean that we can't ask questions either. But, these men have met the qualifications for being an elder, are eager to serve and teach the "flock", and have fruit in their lives. Sometimes obedience can seem very difficult at the time and painful and we may not understand, but I don't have to understand everything. Where in Scripture am I told that I need to understand before I obey? Quite the contrary. The elders are good hearted (if you doubt that, read Rick's own comment ) and take their responsibility very seriously. The only agenda they have is to be sheperds to the flock. There is no "power play" . I have known these men for several years, been involved in ministry and believe they know much more about this than I do.

    Graceandunity, when you say "when is the point when you do what God seems to be leading you to do?" and "I will do whatever He calls me to in this situation", He has already told you what to do.

    God does not "lead" us to do something contrary to His already written Word. So how could He be "leading" you to disobey?

    Also, I do beg to differ with you saying this blog does not have gossip :) You can have good intent but spread untruth and maliciousness... for example one post called the elders, "very, very, arrogant men, and that they have "devalued the teaching of the Word", another post called the elders "deceitful", several others insinuating a "power grab", still another says they are performing a "charade", many others malign their character. Wow, talk about judging the intent of someone's heart! Those are pretty strong accusations, not ones I would say lightly. It would probably be more beneficial for all to express feelings and concerns without slandering someone's character.
    Look at each of the elders lives as individuals and who they are and their character before this issue at hand. Look at their history and the fruit in their lives and then if you find a reason to distrust, bring 2-3 witnesses, and confront them. (I Timothy 5:19) This does not mean you don't agree with them, it's a pattern of sin in their lives. If they don't meet the qualifications for being an elder (Titus 1:5-9) then you have a legitimate issue.

    I hear so much distrust. Do ANY of you who are so anxious about what will happen and want to leave if Rick isn't preaching every Sunday, etc have a true relationship with any of these elders? I mean more that a casual "hi" or chit chat, but been involved in their lives? I would challenge you to get to know them and I think it will bring more confidence and trust in what you might not understand.

    When we embrace the pain that God allows in our lives, He can and will bring much growth.

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  69. Dear Graceandunity,
    Then...BE STILL because you sound frightened and panicked. God has his reasons and allows many circumstances to happen in our lives that will never be understood.

    No matter what your reasoning or justification is, blogs (like emails) are easily misconstrued and, in this case, can be destructive. No doubt your motives are pure...just wondering who is really being glorified here.

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  70. Dear Ayonymous of May 24:

    Actually, I sure wish you would emphasize THAT to the Elders!

    I am not frightened nor panicked...but I have already been attending another wonderful church and am fine if that is where God wants me to be, because I KNOW He doesn't want me to be in a church with these Elders, and NO RICK to balance them out,,,

    But make no mistake, God does ALLOW BAD things to occur too, WHICH could have been prevented...had someone intervened..UH let's talk about something like the Holocaust..

    His promise is " all things work together for good.." not everything that happens IS good. That means even out of BAD things God can bring good. DO YOU understand that?

    God gives us FREE WILL. Just because He is allowing it, doesn't mean it is good..or right..He promises to make good out of our mess.

    (PS with your thinking...then I am sure you are OK with abortion....right? 'Be still and know God is God, right?' or perhaps, do you think you want people not to do that...and maybe should even vote against laws that legalize that?

    Or how about the Gay issue? Are you OK with letting them get married? Be still and know God is God....right?



    ALSO THESE are not my views on abortion and the gay issue...but they are a great analogy.

    I am frankly interested in what God will be doing with Rick when the Elders fire him...but it pains me This church has suffered so many 'splits' Mike Dwyer, Santa Fe Christian, Dave Nelson, Ron Speers and Dave Friese having to leave The destruction has already occurred because of the manner in which this is occurring

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  71. PS I think the handling of this is what has perpetuated the 'lack of confidence' and the 'lack of trust." THe WAY they have handled this...not letting Rick attend meeting, and let's DO talk about slander, and judgement of the intent of someone's heart. The Elders very clearly said Rick had a "third personal issue" that we were 'to ask Rick about" which they did not name in their first meeting....that issue was labled: idolatry of his family or as Rick labeled it " loving his family too much...he was being kind I think to the Elders.

    The "LOVE" that we heared poured regarding little family stories (which every teacher uses) about Laurie, Toby, Karessa, his dad and even his dog Luke, has been categorized as "idolatry." His family/Laurie is his 'idol."

    The portrayal of Rick has not been a glorious shining one, in any of these meetings. Upfront the mandatory words are quickly said..'we love the guy, etc.....BUT" and then there is a laundry list of issues and problems...all stemming from a PHILOSOPHY difference regarding shepherding and how believers grow!!

    And just because Elders are "in place' does NOT mean their motives HAVE to be automatically qualified as right and good and meritous...and that we follow them in blind obedience PS OBEDIENCE is UP TO the point of going against God. Allowing the Elders to put Rick out of the church he founded on this philosophy that these Elders are now saying is not right as well as him being @ 60 yrs of age is NOT right..... (let me add a disclaimer first: I am by no means comparing the Elders to the following men BUT only pointing out that GOOD, well meaning, people of the church can get off on the wrong track).....on a large scale like Ted Haggard or a small scale like our Elders.

    And everything you have said complimenting the Elders in your 2nd paragraph can be said about Rick.....and HE DISAGREES obviously on what they say and HOW they are doing it....AND HE IS AN ELDER!

    And you gotta quote me the scripture on 'OBEY YOUR ELDERS" I 'googled' the phrase on BIBLE GATEWAY and the only Scripture it brought up was...... hmmmmmm?

    Psalm 119:100
    I have more understanding than the elders, for I obey your precepts.

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  72. I would like to also address the anonymous poster of May 24. I don't think anyone really and truly thinks that these elders are malicious or completely ungodly. Well, maybe some do. :) But really, I think the elders are just mislead. It is SO EASY for any of us - especially any of us with any sort of leadership responsibilities - to begin thinking that OUR ideas are God's ideas. This is especially true if we are surrounded by a bunch of other individuals who think the same as we do. It's not that we are necessarily intentionally ignoring God's word - it's just that we hear something that sounds really good and seems to be an actionable strategy, and we start to see Biblical signs pointing us in the same direction. It is SO SO EASY to use the Bible to back up our own ideas. That is why we NEED to have people who think differently than us, who are also men or women of God, who can provide a different perspective and in the process, hopefully together seek truth.

    I have heard the elders talk about this whole thing and Rick talk about his perspective, and it seems fairly clear the elders are absolutely convinced they are right and he is wrong. While Rick has willingly spent WEEKS studying and considering the elders' perspective, they refuse to consider his. Instead of working together and coming to a peaceful agreement that uses Rick's incredible talents AND their gifts, they just want to toss him out. As graceandunity mentioned, God has given us free will, and people are free to make decisions that harm them and others. In the end, God will use it all to bring glory to himself, but that doesn't mean individuals, ministries, or entire churches can't get hurt or ruined in the process.

    And let me point out that the phrase "intentional shepherding" is not located anywhere within the Bible and any loosely related concept is greatly lessened in comparison to the concepts of grace and the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

    Yes, we are told to submit to leadership, but not to blindly follow EARTHLY, HUMAN leaders down a wrong path. The elders are NOT GOD and they do not have direct phoneline to him. Consider the possibility that they could be wrong, and that it is not unbiblical to challenge them and their leadership if there is the possibility that they could be inadvertently acting on their own ideas instead of God's.

    To finish up, if Rick is forced to leave (which it looks like he will be at this point), not only will Seacoast be losing a valuable leader, speaker and friend, but a large portion of the church will likely leave. In addition, consider the damage to Rick and Laurie. Not only is this the ministry of their heart and their community of friends, but it is also their livelihood. This economy is not a good one for new pastoral positions. Even if they start a new church, they will have to struggle financially for years and years, and will be in no position to retire for quite some time. Is this anyway to treat a man who has served and loved faithfully for over 30 years? And all because of a difference in philosophy NOT RELEVANT TO SALVATION that at least half the church doesn't agree with?

    Please, we need to convince the elders that this is the wrong path. They need to come to a peaceful agreement that doesn't split the church anymore than this situation already has.

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  73. Why would the elders split the church like this by trying to fire Rick? Is there no room for diversity of opinion on a five person elder board and in a church of our size? Is this really the best and most creative solution they could come up with?

    We placed them on the board along side Rick to be managers of the church. And I think it’s poor management to be so inflexible on such a small issue. You can’t go around firing people over little disagreements like this. Eventually there will be no one left to fire. And to support your stance by questioning his devotion to God with accusations of idolatry was a real low blow.

    I want make an appeal to the rest of the elders: Can you please take a step back before we do something that can’t be undone? I don’t think it’s too late to come together again. Think about what this will do to the church and to Rick.

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  74. Here is an interesting link

    http://www.theexaminer.org/volume2/number4/rule.htm

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  75. Graceandunity is spinning out of control and I think this blog is doing Rick and Seacoast a diservice. I, for one, am signing off and getting on my knees.

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  76. I am currently a business undergrad on the East Coast. We have a term for what is going on at Seacoast: "hostile takeover"

    I am young and far from knowledgeable about everything Seacoast. And while my family has long attended, my opinions are my own and I speak for myself. Thus I will speak of what I do know - my experience with campus fellowships.

    This notion of 'shepherding' and 'discipleship' has consumed college ministries such as CCC, IV, and Navigators. Well-intentioned youths are herded into asymmetric relationships with nervous freshman just a two years younger than them, asked to purge the deepest secrets of their lives, and play the role of a priest as their minions confess sin and look to them for their spiritual maturity. This modern Christian cultural form is nowhere in the Bible, it is embarrassing to Christianity, yet another 'me-too' doctrine invented by man to make themselves feel holy, godly, and superior to the men they are 'shepherding'. Accountability in the Bible is nearly always reciprocal between equals, 'iron sharpening iron', 'submission to each other' (as another blogger mentioned). There are specific commissions to the elders regarding their spiritual authority over churches - not (as another blogger mentioned) to the minister, who should be primarily occupied with the teaching of the Word of God, a task I have rarely found fulfilled more effectively and humbly than by Pastor Myatt, who devotes himself to point us to our true Shepherd. And even for the elders, while visible expressions of sin are to be dealt with, spiritual authority does not mean seeking individuals out for their sin and purging them of all unrighteousness. Last time I checked that was the job of the Holy Spirit. The Bible gives an account of a recovering legalist, Paul of Tarsus. And after he went to his Celebrate Recovery class, he wrote a book about the subject to the Galatians. It might as well be called Seacoastians.

    So Pastor Myatt might benefit from some business know-how. So he might need to be more assertive and proactive with ministry. So he idolizes his family, sports, and Hawaii. So he may trivialize certain spiritual principles (often in order to communicate them in a way that everybody might understand). He's not perfect. At least he loves his wife and his kids. Dr Timothy Keller said that idolatry is the greatest danger of a good marriage. Indeed, idolatry is the inevitability of the human condition. Again, Pastor Myatt sees this - the elders don't. Why don't the elder's stop judging his humanity and use him as a role model for how to love their wife and kids more (poster not judging that they don't, but still). Far from perfect, Pastor Myatt is still a man after God's own heart - a guy that is going to be kicked out over a non-scriptural difference and the desire of four men to be right no matter what. The elders will find a smooth-talking politician type come in who speaks fluent Christianese, jumps through all the hoops, and delivers the cultural hooplah taught at pastor's conferences that quite honestly makes Christianity embarrassing to the outsider. What ever happened to grace?

    But this isn't about ideology, really. This is about power. This is Romans 1 all over again - in our hearts we all want to be God - from the elders to Pastor Myatt to this poster. Nobody's ideology is perfect - but between Pastor Myatt and the elders, I think we all sense that one of the parties understands this a little more. This schism - like all do - will be decided by which mouth shouts the loudest. And money and power talks a lot louder than humility. It will take a while for the masses to submit. Pastor Myatt will be gone by then.

    I - and I do speak for my family on this - will miss him. And I will not return to Seacoast.

    My final thought on shepherding:
    "The Lord is my shepherd, and I shall not want."

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  77. well said, young man, well said. AND AMEN..proclaimed the 'spinning out of control' graceandunity. HA!

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  78. Just so everyone is clear about what "small groups" the elders want, I was personally asked if I was in a small group. I said, "Yes, I've been in the morning Bible study AND an evening Bible study at different parts of the year here at Seacoast." I was told, "Well, that is NOT the kind of small group we are talking about." I was ABSOLUTELY STUNNED! Here I am meeting at Seacoast with other Seacoasters for Bible studies, getting to know others, love others, do outside things with these new friends, pray for each other, care about each other, encourage one another-----and I am told that the Elders do not consider the Bible study groups I've faithfully been in as the "small groups" they have in mind?????? They are so very, very wrong... In fact, I would never go to Seacoast again nor would I recommend Seacoast to anyone again based on their definition of "small group" if they let Rick go. It reeks of control, like many cults use. In fact, if the Elders are so "right on" with their view on small group/shepherding scripturally, then my whole life I have NEVER attended a scripturally-sound church----nor had my beautiful Christ-loving parents, nor had my amazing grandparents who led me to Christ, nor have many missionaries I know, etc... This whole thing is SO VERY SAD. Sad, sad, sad..... I have tears as I am writing this... Please do not do this to Rick. Please, please work out some configuration where Rick can stay as our teaching pastor...

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  79. So can we do anything? How do we bring out concerns to the elders? Or are we just spinning our wheels? What's the plan?

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  80. Hi Bloggers, I just wanted to remind you that it's the first Sunday of the month and we meet in the conference room from 8:15am-8:45am for prayer. Brian Wright leads us in praying for Seacoast.
    I hope you can join us.

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  81. I just want to let everyone know that last night the elders asked Rick to give them his resignation. I can't believe after all they made him do, they just asked him to leave. But I guess it isn't really all that shocking. I'm so utterly sad and disappointed that it came to this. Seacoast will most assuredly never be the same.

    Perhaps this is wrong of me to say, but if Rick decides to start a new church, I encourage everyone who believes in his vision and teaching to help. Planting a new church is the work of a young pastor, not one who will retire in 10 years! It is also extremely financially demanding. At least pray that God leads Rick to the right place.

    What a horrible ending to a sad situation.

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  82. Is anyone surprised??? It was very evident this was their intention, and the last two months have been a 'weaning' process for the congregation.

    As I stated from the very beginning this was their goal and the writing was on the wall.....Please do not support the action of the Elders, please do not support it.

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  83. We need to demand to have Rick back and every last one of these elders fired. The way they have handled this is so cruel. It's unconscionable. It wasn't enough for them to get their way. They had to make sure that Rick is to suffer for having the audacity to disagree with their self righteous opinions.

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  84. Everyone please contact the elders, everyone you know on staff, and especially the church's biggest donors. Tell everyone else you know at Seacoast. We need to let them know that is NOT ok! Do not stand by why this is happening.

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  85. its happening...the elders were ready at the Tues. meeting to fire/ask Rick to resign...while they said nothing was predetermined...it was...they had an agenda. Be forewarned in following/allowing such 'blinded' myopic men to guide the direction....while God is 'allowing' He is not directing these men....This has been hurtful, painful and NOT scriptural. These men are good at the 'letter of the law' (and the SCC constitution but NOT at the Spirit of the Law...which is what Jesus taught on the Mount.

    We encourage you to follow Rick elsewhere...and give him a place where he is loved, nutured, supported, appreciated and we can encourage him while he encourages us and teaches us God's MAGNIFICENT Word....where all that are there WANT to be there...where all are equal, and are equally serving others....

    Come check out Coastline COmmunity Church on father's Day http://www.coastlinechurch.com/home.html

    2215 Calle Barcelona - Carlsbad - Ca - 92009
    760-753-0886

    More on gathering together as like-minded servants of God....not just men who 'think alike.'

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  86. Tracy Hubly-StarkjohannJune 18, 2010 at 10:32 AM

    PS...for those of you supporting the elders 'blindly' or those of you who think the Bible is 'old hat' and you 'know it like the back of your hand' or think you are so 'good' at discernment....RE READ or open it up with FRESH NEW EYES..not the old "yah, I know what this says..." What has been done is NOT Scriptural in the SPIRIT of the 'LAW' the Letter has perhaps been followed but NOT the Spirit. This has been entrenched in legalism.

    BE BEREANS....open up your own Bibles...read ACTS all the way through...READ the Epistles, READ JESUS' WORDS...read the Sermon on the Mount, READ 1 Tim, 1 Peter, READ the New testament all the way through and in conjunctions with the WHOLE. These Elders have acted as the Pharisees in many, many ways. They have pitted themselves and their way of thinking against.... They have perhaps 'intended well' and thought they were united and doing right ) but then, so did the Pharisees and Saul- he justified murder for God----before Jesus brought him to his knees) but this whole procedure has NOT been with the Spirit of God's Word. They can continually point to this and that Scripture they are using....(ps so can Rick) but they have NOT placed others' (Rick for starters and others in this church) ahead of their own selves, desires, or needs....or agenda. They have taken the 'power' given to them as 'shepherds' of this church and run roughshod over it

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  87. Leaders are servants....not tyrants. Where and how have the elders exhibited being a servant to Rick? I fear from what I have seen and heard from some of them -is the suffering from (over) intellectualizing and relying on their own righteous, 'perfect' knowledge of Scripture. I have seen the pride in their knowledge and discernment of the Word..considering the rest of us---as the Pharisee's did--not smart, wise, or knowledgeable enough to be able to interpret understand or discern what God's Word is.
    Intellectualizing is great and important for reasonableness in our daily normal living, and feelings are valuable for the consciousness of God's presence, but the real test is found in being willing TO DO the FATHER's Will found in His Scripture. Consider others better than yourself...they have NOT considered Rick better, they have only extricated, exploited, and emphasized Rick's shortcomings....and ignored the beam in their own eye.

    They sent Rick away to have the Spirit show him himself, because only the 'Spirit is able to show what is wrong without hurting and wounding' but yet that wasn't good enough for them. Did they trust and allow the Spirit to work in Rick?
    Or did they say in their own flesh...."nope, this is NOT what WE wanted Rick to get out of this?"

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  88. Tracy Hubly-StarkjohannJune 18, 2010 at 10:35 AM

    In the Gospel and His Word we find the real TRUTH. What these men have spearheaded at SeaCoast in NOT in alignment with the Spirit of what we find in (ALL) Scriptures - not extracting peices by which they have fed whomever they could get to listen (maybe they have covered every 'jot and tittle') but they are not in line with God's Spirit in their treatment of this whole situation, the church body and ultimately Rick.

    It was CLEAR their intent was to fire/release/ get rid of Rick. I hate to say 'I told you so' --but it was very apparent and clear to me and several others; every time they spoke at a meeting. You see, some of us are very 'worldly' as well and very perceptive to the reading of body language and the 'interpretation' of speech and mannerisms...and can put two and teo together.

    They have used the last months to wean the church off Rick 'presence' & influence...a very worldly and businesslike approach and process...and much similiar to hostile-corporate-takeovers (but yet also slowly over the past 3 - 5 years)

    God allows bad---

    WE ARE ALL CHRISTIANS and brothers and sisters and you men, do NOT hold the SOLID, ONLY TRUTH--like a Pharisee. You have caused many, many who are not mature Christians, to sin to be mislead, to have a hardship in their faith or your UNREASONABLE and 'nonessential' agenda and 'vital' as you may have it SEEM TO YOUR NEEDS.... it is not an essential of this church to have shepherding and spiritual growth occur in YOUR DETERMINED manner...and you have done much damaged and have divided this church by YOUR actions.

    Rick has responded thtu this whole ordeal in accordance with the Scriptures, humbly, obediently, openly and vulnerably SUBMITTINGLY....as Jesus' picture and example has been put forth in His Word.

    Your actions have NOT portrayed God's example as rightly and justified as you think you are in doing what & HOW you have.

    AND 3 MONTHS SEVERAGE for a 31 year service. OUTRAGEOUS!!

    I encourage those who are concerned with the actions of the elders, as well as for the well-being of Rick & his family...to bring the 'church of Seacoast' to where ever Rick should find himself....

    Form the get go of our attending this church I was always told....Tracy, if you cannot 'abide by 'how' this church is (paraphrased) go find another church that is what, and think how you do....for the life of me I cannot understand why Tom Carr, Bill Buchanan, Jim Tkach and Frank SUng & a few others...did not go out to find that church and leave Seacoast, founded and grown by the Lord and the Spirit (and Rick Myatt and his family) to the philosophy and beliefs upon which it has survived AS WELL as brought so-o-o-o-0 many persons like myself and Chris to come to be IN LOVE with the LORD and His WOrd and to utter, complete surrender to our Father and King

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  89. Tracy hubly-STarkjohannJune 18, 2010 at 10:35 AM

    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  90. Bleach-Blond Heavy Drummer ;^]June 18, 2010 at 12:30 PM

    In January 1991 arriving from NJ, Mary and I planned on "church shopping" in order to find a new church home. Well it never happened. Seacoast was first on the list. One week (and another to be more sure) and we were done.

    Seacoast was not real organized then--a more seat-of-the-pants kinda' place.

    Wow how I miss it.

    It was more organic in how it operated and followed scripture. If you were new, someone asked you out to lunch. Soon you're invited to another's for dinner, a bible study etc. It flowed without formalization of process. However, it was an effective well-oiled machine. We grew.

    Slowly, a corporate, business mindset set in. More formalization of process, and management du jour remedies being tossed about. Good intentions to meet a growing congregation.

    It never could hold a candle to its earlier incarnation. Still, it was a great place to worship and grow.

    Now, the suits have taken over.

    I think the elders are genuinely good, Godly men who have made a grave, catastrophic mistake. I'll not judge their motives--it's not scriptural and certainly not of God's will. I love them simply because they are my brothers in Christ. They are serious about serving God.

    They've also done a disservice to the congregation by asking for Rick's resignation without discussing that specific action with the all of us first. That may be within the statutes of the constitution, but it's not within the Spirit of unity. Some admonition is due to these brothers.

    Seacoast isn't IBM.

    And that's why Seacoast used to be a healthier, more scriptural place--warts and all.

    Everyone knew Rick really delivered the goods, brought them in the door, kept 'em coming back while everyone else picked up the slack and did their part to fill the needs. It was the body principle in all its unsophisticated, organic glory.

    We need to sit down with our brothers and have them 'undo' this and maybe take them up on their first-meeting offer to "step down" as one of several possible solutions. They did throw it out there, so it needs to be considered.

    We need to restore the Elders (maybe not in that capacity) and Rick and Laurie and hopefully remain as a unified congregation serving Christ.

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  91. For those of you who doubt that it was the elder's intention to fire Rick all along, I just recently learned that while Rick was in Idaho, the elders began cleaning out all of his old sermon tapes so that they could throw them away. To me that just screams "we're going to fire you no matter what."

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  92. It breaks my heart that the elders succeeded in forcing my dad out of Seacoast through a serious of manipulations, underhanded actions and outright cruelty to the most humble, Godly man I have ever known. Seacoast has been my parents' ministry for 30 years to which they have been completely dedicated. It was their community, and they cared deeply for it and for each person who went there. I cannot express the absolute shock, anger, betrayal and intense sadness that my entire family is feeling. It is though someone has died. Though I am hoping and praying that God has something better for my dad, it's going to be a tough road for him and my mom.

    It's a possibility that they may be starting a new church, though it will be extremely challenging. If you want to talk with my parents and ask them questions about what's been going on and what the future holds for them, come to a fellowship gathering at Cardiff Elementary School at 4 p.m. this coming Sunday. I encourage all of you who are even slightly interested to come. Thank you for your support via this blog, and through your prayers.

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  93. I just want to add a disclaimer to my previous post. These are all my thoughts, not my dad's. He has handled this situation with far more grace and love than I could ever hope to have. Though he is heartbroken, he would never say anything negative about the elders. It is me that is angered by this whole situation. I still hope all of you show up at 4 this Sunday at Cardiff Elementary School. Thanks again.

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  94. Tracy Hubly-StarkjohannJune 23, 2010 at 8:16 AM

    Yes Carissa your dad has been the picture perfedect picture and example of Jesus and how ALL of us should ever hope to handle something so heartbreaking and cruel as what has gone on.

    While brothers and sisters in Christ may have differences of opinions ( outside of the essentials - IE regarding Jesus Christ) a dispute or disagreement should never have been EVER handled in the manner that THIS has taken place. Just the fact that there was no trust among the elders to even allow Rick to attend ANY meeting is indicative of the 'WRONG' motives and feelings behind all these actions.

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  95. Tracy Hubly-STarkjohannJune 23, 2010 at 8:17 AM

    The most heartwrenching fact that myself (and others) are having to come to grip with is: we THOUGHT SeaCoast 'had it right' We rejoiced in being a part of a church, which was the 'picture' of God's Grace and the community and family that God desires for His children here on earth. We thought we had found it at SeaCoast. And as the dust settles, that cruel hard fact which breaks my heart is not only the hurtful, painfulness of how we saw this was maneuvered and enacted against one of the most faithful, humble, trusting 'ACCURATE" servants of God which I have ever known, but the cold hard fact that SeaCoast is just a mini-environment of our outside world and culture..not the home we thought it was striving to be.

    Men still vying for position, power plays taking place, technical legalism occuring, some what self-interest abounding and dominance of the power....reducing the situation and squeezing it into 'business standards, veiwing, analyzing and applying the circumstances thru their worldly sterile, surgical-businesslike-precision and perception. And acting according with that standard and not heeding to a God's flip-flopped grace and love (in the world's eye)by which to deal with disagreeance.

    oh, there's a 'family' at Seacoast...but just like most other families.....like the son who marries the gal his mother cannot stand....

    I have heard so many times from Bob Newby, we want to grow friendships and relationships where ' if you had a problem at 2 am in the morning, you could call someone up and they would come watch your kids'

    well, seriously would Bill Buchanan or Frank Sung be at Rick's doorstep at 2 am for that call? (Some elders' and their wives won't even say 'hello' in a grocery store or pretend 'they don't see you.) Let's put it like this....if Rick can't pay his mortgage after the 'gracious' (NOT) three months serverance runs out...will these two men be there to help out? Are any of them concerned about his financial future...
    pretty much he is on his own to make that happen ( Thank the Lord that Rick knows that 'what God supplies is enough' no thanks to these guys or help. ( my words not Rick's)

    I am so sad to find out that SeaCoast is really the same as the world...and I am not saying I thought we were ALL PERFECT...but I KNOW something like what has happened is supposed to look, feel and BE different than this....is the picture of the family God gives us.

    We are to have a different look and a different standard. It's supposed to be a "safe HOME" in the world. But nope, it's just like the world..some ARE SAFE, and some are not.

    And finally, it hurts and is soooo painful ( and insulting) to learn that 'our' family here' says that those of us who saw things differently from the elders, and have ended up leaving....are just considered to be "branches being'pruned' out of the church--apparantely the parellel here --likened to John 15 I am assuming---unfruitful branches, pruned off, to be picked up and thrown into the fire. (that from the our brothers, the elders)

    Yes, it has rocked my world that the church that I thought was 'getting it right' is just slightly different from the world around us, and that ideal of unity and brothers and sisters living in grace and love, helping each other, getting through this place, caring beyond and above, there for each and loving together, united in a higher 'cause' together by Christ was just a hopeful dream...only to really come into reality I guess in Heaven.

    Yes, I know no one is perfect, but these are the elders from which this example is coming, held to a higher and different standard..(biblical) the leadership. If the supposed 'cream of the crop' can't get it right......

    But for Rick, HE is the real leader here...they should learn from his example.

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  96. I'd like to suggest to the owner of this blog that he/she create a new post about Rick's 4:00pm Sunday meeting at Cardiff Elementary School so that it is easily visible to the readers. Do we have any details about what room it will be in?

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  97. we too feel like something has died..the dream of a 'God's family here on earth, with all brothers and sisters united in at least---the basics of God's Love and Grace.
    Sadly enough, this church is still pretty much like the outside world.
    Certainly, not the haven of safety and different prespective we thought it to be.

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  98. This is really sad. I haven't been around to see the last few months pass, but it is almost embarrassing ( having being raised in this church from birth ) to see the overarching trend of firing anybody with out the same vision.
    -Trevor Levieux

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  99. Nichole Salles-CunhaJune 27, 2010 at 7:43 PM

    Speachless and heartbroken.

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  100. I find it sad and disturbing that a small group of people were able to force Rick out to further thier own agenda. If they wanted to do what is right, they would be the ones stepping down and moving to a church where thier ideals were valued. Unfortunately, they will now impose thier philospohy on Seacoast.

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  101. Shame on all of you. I find this entire "slander blog" extremely upsetting and disappointing. Whether you side with Rick or the Elders is irrelevant. Your continuous gossip, carelessly strewn about on these pages, is hurtful and causing further division of the body of Chirst. God help us all!

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  102. No, shame on the Elders...THEY caused division; when a healing, mending and reconciliation was possible and recommended by the "specialists" and the counselors the Elders sent them to. They are held to a hire standard as LEADERS, and all they did was show and go the way of the world. Isolate and cut off those with which you disagree. They did nothing to show HOW to live in UNITY and PEACE amongst the Body of Christ. Their example was cut out and cut OFF those with which you differ. I cannot drive by that church without feeling the pain they caused to this Body.

    And. this is NOT gossip. This is pain and abck and forth the Elders would 'not hear' though they have ears. Gossip is spreading 'runor' not knowing if it is true or not, and without the intention of a solution or resolution. The bloggers desparately wanted the Elders to see and hear that their idea of Rick being 'ineffective' was not true, nor were his skills of 'intentional sheparding' lacking. Nor is it slander when it is true.

    The pain has been caused by the Elders. THEY split this church and body. THEY are responsible.

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  103. I searched and found that Rick is at Anchor Church, meeting at 838 Academy Solana Beach Sundays at 10AM. May God bless his new ministry. Moses was old when his ministry started :)

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